Our Projects and Partnership Manager, Rizwana Bi, spoke with Baroness Warsi about her latest book, ‘Muslims Don’t Matter.’

In this Q&A, Baroness Warsi discusses the book’s intended audience, the changes required to enable Muslim voices to be heard, especially within the political domain, and how she personally finds resilience in such challenging environments.

The title Muslims Don’t Matter is quite provocative. What led to your choice of this title, and who did you intend the book’s primary audience to be? 

I think the primary audience are two groups of people: first, what I call the ordinary, everyday decent people in the United Kingdom, who are not taken in by the poisoned public discourse, which has demonised Muslims for so long, because the overwhelming people in Britain are tolerant and inclusive, and feel that everybody has got equal worth and value. The second group of people are those who certainly over the last 12 months have been speaking to me, emailing me, messaging me, basically saying to me that they feel silenced, stigmatised and stereotyped; that they feel that they don’t have a voice anymore and feel that Muslims don’t matter. And so, when I wrote the book, I actually dedicated the book to those two groups of people.

The post book events, have had huge turnouts, because there is a desire to talk about these issues in a place, which is civilised and civilising; and it’s done in the interest of learning rather than about point scoring.

The book discusses how Muslims are often denied agency in shaping policies that impact their lives, with policies instead being imposed upon them. What specific changes do you believe are necessary to ensure that Muslim voices are included in the political domain?

There are many examples that I give in the book on Muslims not having agency at the moment. Almost every conversation with British Muslim communities, they will say that.

Let me give you three examples of practical things that could happen. One, I think we’ve got to end the policy of disengagement, where for nearly 17 years successive governments have simply not engaged with large sections of the British Muslim community; only having engaged with those who tell them what they want to hear rather than a genuine, broad and deep engagement with communities on the issues that they are concerned about.

Secondly, the fact that here we are nearly decades after the Runnymede Trust started talking about Islamophobia, we’re still having a debate about whether or not the word should be Islamophobia. The fact that poll after poll show although this is not a perfect word, this is the most recognised and most supported word within Muslim communities. That Muslim communities don’t have the agency, certainly under the last government of even using the term to describe their own racism.

Thirdly, freedom of expression and freedom of speech, time and time again, which we talk about as a fundamental British value and so many people talk about defending it. When it comes to Muslim communities, it seems to be not a right but a privilege. And what we find is the Prevent Duty which effectively silences discussion, with Muslims singled out as to what can and cannot be discussed.

So, this is what I mean about agency, Muslims are not asking for special treatment. British Muslims are asking for equal treatment and that includes not being held to a standard higher than any other community would be held.

The difficulties Muslim women face in liberal and feminist spaces, where they are often “spoken about, spoken at, or frozen out.” What strategies do you suggest for creating more inclusive environments that genuinely support their voices and experiences?

You’re absolutely right, at a time when all the young people go around saying: you be you; you be your best version of you; you be the most authentic you. It feels like when Muslim women are making choices about their life, and they may not be choices that you and I may make, but it’s their choices. Isn’t feminism about women having choice? And being able to make those choices without other women saying, no you’re not allowed to make those choices because you have to make the choices that I want you to make.

I don’t wear the hijab, but I find often conversations about the hijab or the nikkab or what women wear or how they conduct their lives are rooted in this kind of terrible lack of understanding of how feminism works. I have seen the most independent feminist, outspoken, clear minded, successful women who choose to live their lives in very conservative ways and I just feel that somehow we interpret that as a non-feminist position. And I found when women are attacked, I give the example of Zarah Sultana in the book, she was deliberately attacked in the House of Commons by the then prime minister who imposed an Islamophobic trope upon her when she was simply doing her job. I didn’t see Labour feminists lining up to defend her. It took another Muslim woman, Naz Shah to have to speak on her behalf. And I think that’s what I find, often those people who consider themselves to be in liberal spaces, even liberal newspapers, even the arts space, the very spaces where you will expect liberal thought to flourish, whether it’s women’s rights, LGBT rights, other rights. We found even in those spaces, its simply Muslim women don’t get the support that they need.

When reading chapter 2, there was a sense of dread and hopelessness when describing the barriers Muslims face daily. How do you personally find resilience in such a challenging environment? What can individuals and communities do to foster hope and action despite these grim realities? 

I think on a personal level, I reset, I start each day with a sense of reset to say, okay deep breath, you know today is a new day, something optimistic could happen.

I was at a book talk, actually I was at a talk around Islamophobia last week and the person interviewing me, who was a white man, said do you think people get sick of you talking about this issue? And I said, do you not think I get sick of me talking about this issue; do you not think that it would be great to wake up in the morning and be a white man and not even have to reset and think about these issues?

So, I think it is a sense of reset that you have to have deep inside you to say okay, we can either say, right we’re not going to bother with this and then it will get a whole lot worst or we can try to at least speak truth to power, which I think is a really basic thing in these times. If you can’t do anything about it at least speak out.

My faith, I don’t think I’m a particularly religious person, but I’m definitely a deeply spiritual person. I always say what my faith does is that it sustains me at times of distress and tempers me at times of success. When there are these moments, when it is distressful then, you know, like this morning, when I prayed fajr, it was a moment just to sit there, in the quiet on a morning and just say right okay, today is a new day, let’s see what we can do.

I am also incredibly lucky that I have a wonderful family and that sustains me. And I also think because I come from very, very humble beginnings and I’ve been incredibly lucky and privileged, as to where my life has ended up, that in itself I think is sustaining, because you suddenly realise that for all the challenges life brings – life is good.

From a community perspective, I think what I always say, we’re not the first ones to be here. We’ve been here before: we’ve been here before with women; we’ve been here before with Jews; we’ve been here before with Catholics; we’ve been here before with the gay communities; we’ve been here before where Britain has found within it people who considers to be the other and who it discriminates against. And so, this is just the latest. If we’ve worked it out before, we’ll work it out again.

Despite the challenges you describe, what opportunities do you see for Muslims to make a positive impact on society and policy in the future? 

I’m optimistic for a number of reasons, one because we are an incredibly young community, we’re a growing community, we’re a vibrant community, we’re an entrepreneurial community and all of those things will feed into what Britain becomes.

Secondly, if you look at our national consciousness as a nation then everything kind of from Sewing Bee to MasterChef, to BakeOff to Strictly has been touched by very high profile British Muslims. When British Muslims, mentioned in my last chapter, like Hamza Yassin won strictly or Asmaa wins the Sewing Bee or Saliha wins MasterChef or Nadiya wins BakeOff or Mo Farah wins gold medal - all of these moments are moments where the British Muslim is in the national consciousness and been embraced. Now of course we shouldn’t have to be the best at something to be accepted, we also should be accepted when we are not the best, maybe even at our worst we should be accepted, because we are a part of our nation.

The third is, even when the community felt the most angry and the most disengaged, it still wanted to have its voice heard at the last election. By engaging in democracy and even if it did that by electing independents, it chose to engage with the system and embrace democracy rather than disconnect from the system and reject democracy. And that’s really a positive sign, that after nearly two decades of disengagement process and in othering by mainstream politicians, thinktanks and the media, that the community is still in that place, where it wants to be a part, it wants to belong and it wants to matter.

Your insights into the struggle for authenticity in the face of Islamophobia touch on a powerful theme. What advice would you give to Muslims navigating their identities in a climate that often challenges and marginalises them?

I would say don’t sanitise your Muslimness, if that’s who you are. I don’t think you should over play your Muslimness, if that’s not a big part of your identity then don’t, but don’t sanitise it either. Try and be true to yourself, whether it’s in relationships, whether it’s at the workplace, where ever it may happen to be. If you can’t be yourself, it’s start to become a really uncomfortable place. We can’t go back to the times when we are saying to people go back in the closet, and we can’t be saying to Muslim communities can you get back in the closet, you can’t be your true self.

Sometimes what is being said is not bigoted it’s just ignorant, so create the environment and spaces to have honest, open conversations. And what we’re doing now, when we are going around the country with the book, what I’m saying to people, you can ask me anything, as long as it is done in a way which is respectful and in the interest of learning.

Give people the space and engage yourself confidently in those spaces to have those conversations. Finally, I’d say use humour, the Muslim comedy scene is phenomenal at the moment and humour is a very good way in which you can be the most authentic, probably even the edgiest authentic version of yourself, and humour is such a British thing.

Baroness Warsi will be talking about her book, Muslims Don’t Matter, at an event Birmingham Voices will be holding next week Friday 29th November, 2024 at the Mauth Trust in Birmingham. Pre-registration is required, to register here: https://tinyurl.com/5d8v9hub